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interview by: Roberto Martinelli
Like any famous producer, Roy Z may not be a household name, but the guys he’s recorded are. And the two biggest names that Z has worked with are arguably the most influential metal singers of all time, Rob Halford and Bruce Dickinson, on both their respective solo projects, as well as producing Halford’s comeback with Judas Priest, Angel of Retribution. But Z doesn’t just turn dials and set EQs. He's a highly acclaimed guitarist, both for Dickinson’s solo band and for his long-running personal project, The Tribe of Gypsies.
We contacted Z to chat about his highly unorthodox technique to recording cymbals, and his thoughts on electronic cymbals versus cymbal replacement in post-production. The things he said surprised the hell out of us.
Maelstrom: Before we begin, I have to say on a personal note that it was a bit of a bittersweet experience when I saw Bruce Dickinson’s band perform at Wacken 2002. I was really looking forward to seeing you on stage (I really like The Chemical Wedding a lot), but I was disappointed to see not one person from that lineup was there.
Roy Z: It was kind of a weird thing. The answer that Bruce gave me was, “oh, I didn’t think you’d want to do it.” And I was like, “what do you mean, man?” (Laugh) But I think it was a cost thing. All the guys [on stage] were in the UK. Bruce could just shove ‘em all in a plane and take ‘em over to play, and then fly ‘em back himself.
Maelstrom: What’s your experience producing e-cymbals?
Roy Z: I have the Drumagog [program]. I was using Sound Replacer before that. But most of the time we end up overdubbing cymbals if we want something separate. That seems to work the best. To be honest with you [electronic] rides, you can get away with where it sounds realistic; hi-hats? Forget about it. With crashes, you can get away with it, too.
A hi-hat, especially, is so dynamic, with nuances and finesse. I’ve never been happy with hi-hat sounds from e-cymbals.
Maelstrom: When you’re replacing cymbals, are you replacing the acoustic sound, or recording with e-cymbals and then replacing the trigger spikes with samples in a library?
Roy Z: What we’ve done in the past, Roberto, is record the songs without the cymbals, and then add them later. That way we’d have more flexibility with the drums and really process them. Not every drummer can do that...
Maelstrom: I know! I was just thinking that. I remember first hearing about this with Slayer’s first record. What is that like?
Roy Z: What we do sometimes is set up something soft that he can hit – like a towel on a stand – that represents a cymbal, that would make a real soft sound that wouldn’t come through in the mics. But the real good guys just do it [without cymbals]. I don’t know how they do it! They balance themselves properly and do the whole routine without the cymbals.
Maelstrom: What records have you done this technique with?
Roy Z: I’ve done it on almost every album I’ve worked on, but for different reasons; like, we wanted a bigger sound. I did it on a couple of songs on [Bruce Dickinson’s The Chemical Wedding) – I know I did it on “Jerusalem.”
Maelstrom: And even to go back afterward and only hit the cymbals; like, only hit the ride and hi-hat. I can’t imagine.
Roy Z: Yeah. You need a really good drummer; a guy that arranges his routines and writes them out. The best guy I know is the Halford drummer, Bobby Jarzombek. I think he’s also in Iced Earth and Sebastian Bach. The guy’s phenomenal. His technique is beyond what anybody realizes. He writes out everything, including what cymbal he’s going to hit and when. He also times how long each cymbal’s decay is, and won’t hit a cymbal again until its decay is over. So you get a real nice, even sound with him. Other drummers don’t think about it.
Maelstrom: I think from an artistic point of view I respect him for doing that. But, practically, if you listen to a lot of metal records, the cymbals are definitely held back in the mix from what their true, live sound would be if you played them in front of someone.
Roy Z: Especially for metal, you need to pick the cymbals that are going to cut through the guitars. And that’s hard, man. Over the last few years, we’ve tried to listen to the cymbals in pre-production, and try to figure out if anything is getting in the way of anything else, but it’s really hard.
Maelstrom: Roy, I’m in the process of researching what the best cymbals are for the purpose of cutting. What are your recommendations?
Roy Z: I really like the Paiste Signature sound. The cymbals are real musical; they have a beautiful decay. They’re a little bit warmer, so when a drummer bashes them for metal, they don’t get a brassy, overblown sound. I’m not into that. They’re very sweet and cut through. I prefer those. The Paiste Rudes are pretty cool, too.
Maelstrom: Yes, I’ve been looking into those. They seem to be very applicable for live use. You produced that Bruce Dickinson live record, Scream for Me, Brazil. (Roy Z also produced Halford’s Live Insurrection) Would you say the Signatures are as good for live use, or are they more of a studio cymbal?
Roy Z: They’re a great overall cymbal. They are more for the studio, but guys like Bobby go ahead and use them live, too. But he goes through them, as well. They’re quite expensive. The Rudes have a duller vibe, so you can really bash those; and they’re real heavy duty. If I were a drummer, live, I’d probably want some of those.
Maelstrom: At what point do you use the Drumagog program in your mixing process? (Drumagog is a program that allows you to replace drum sounds with other ones – ed)
Roy Z: I just started getting into it for everything: Replacing stuff, or enhancing drums and cymbals. If I’m mixing something and you can’t quite hear the ride, what I’ll do is I’ll make a trigger track of what the ride is doing, try to build in some dynamics into that, and go ahead and use the Drumagog [to replace the trigger track]. That works great.
Maelstrom: Are you miking each cymbal?
Roy Z: Yeah. You have way more control that way. That way you have your balance, and you can bounce it all down to two tracks later if you need to.
Maelstrom: How is it different to replace a cymbal versus just using an electronic cymbal and using that to directly record?
Roy Z: It just comes down to control. When you’re doing this [replacing] stuff, it’s usually to fix something.
Maelstrom: So you’re only replacing something if it isn’t sounding right. You’re not replacing all the cymbals.
Roy Z: Exactly. I’d rather overdub them. If I’m doing a live concert, and the ride sounds wrong, or I’m not feeling a crash, or the mic’s broken... I have to replace that.
Maelstrom: I almost like listening to live records more than I like going to shows. I can actually hear the songs much better on CD. How much of a live record is actually going into the studio after the fact and, like you said, making trigger tracks of the drums, for example?
Roy Z: Without letting the genie out of the bottle, sometimes you have to do the whole thing all over again.
Maelstrom: So in the end, why would someone want to buy electronic cymbals?
Roy Z: The good side is that you can have a vast array of cymbal sounds without having to actually buy a bunch of cymbals. The bad side is that you just cannot replace the essence, the sound, and the dynamic of a real cymbal. It’s hard work to make them sound real. You have to use compression and create ambience with them.
Maelstrom: One guy said that what he would do is record the sound of the triggers coming through the speakers.
Roy Z: Yup. You set ‘em up in a nice, ambient room, with a couple of NS-10s, and run ‘em through those. Just to get a little room ambience. And then you mix that sound in with the trigger sound. You can do it in a bathroom or a garage; it really helps a lot. Then you can add a little reverb. We’ve done that before in nice studios, like at Sound City.
Maelstrom: How do you deal with the (electronic) cymbal always sounding the same?
Roy Z: There’s tricks. You change the pitch and the volume for each hit. The pitch of a cymbal will change depending on how hard you hit it.
Maelstrom: Are you manually doing this?
Roy Z: Yes.
Maelstrom: Holy shit! Doesn’t that take you days?
Roy Z: It takes a few hours. You go in there and change each hit until it sort of feels natural. And then you run it through the speakers.
Maelstrom: So you mic everything, then replace hits on specific tracks?
Roy Z: Say I get a session I didn’t do myself; they didn’t mic the ride properly, or some of the crashes properly – I’ll just go ahead and replace it. So I’ll make that trigger track: I’ll go in and physically cut one of the cycles in the cymbal, and I use that to trigger within Drumagog or Sound Replacer.
Maelstrom: We dabbled a little with Drumagog. Mostly for replacing kicks. We found it worked a little too well. I wanted all my kicks at the same strength, but unfortunately, I’m not a perfect player. The program was layering in a sample based on the actual force of my hit.
Roy Z: Oh, then you need to use Sound Replacer. You can bypass the sensitivity settings on that. But you really need to make trigger tracks if you want to get that effect. I know guys like Andy Sneap, I’ve read – and even when I met him, back then when he was using Cubase or Cakewalk – he does it all via MIDI. He was making MIDI triggers of each hit. What I do is actually cut each drum hit, and make a trigger track. It takes a long time...
Maelstrom: I was going to say. It sounds major... And my next question is, what if you’ve got someone like Mike Portnoy (who’s got a million drums and cymbals in his set up) to record? What would you do?
Roy Z: You’re hatin’ life, dude. Hahahah!
Maelstrom: The guy’s got like, 30 cymbals.
Roy Z: Then you just have to get a good overall balance.
Maelstrom: How on earth did you decide to do things this way?
Roy Z: I’m still learning and progressing. My background isn’t as an engineer. But as I’ve been going, I’ve been learning and hanging with different guys and learning different techniques. And you know, the threshold within metal is expanding so much now with all the digital recording. So you need to have total control and capture as much as you can from the word “go.” It seems like it’s easier to take away than it is to add, sometimes. But when you do have to add, that’s when the different programs or overdubbing techniques help.
Maelstrom: But even if you mike each cymbal individually, doesn’t it make it really difficult to replace any one of them, as the rest of the cymbals are ringing in each of the other cymbals’ individual microphones?
Roy Z: You need to isolate, have good miking, and not get too much into the toms. It’s a headache, but it can be done.
Maelstrom: Can you talk about isolation techniques?
Roy Z: We’ve played around with different things. Cardboard always works great.
Maelstrom: Hahahah! That’s hilarious! I’m laughing because, as you know, there’s the whole industry that sells the special foam, the one that costs like $200 for like a briefcase full. I scratch my head and wonder, “what’s in this foam?” And here you are using cardboard.
Roy Z: Yeah. Cardboard with a little bit of tape over it. (Laugh)
Maelstrom: That’s brilliant! Yes, I know this isn’t in any of the studio pictures, but... Where do you put the cardboard, and what do you tape it to?
Roy Z: Once you’ve got your mic in place, you can sort of go around and shield the area that you don’t want bleeding in. Again, I use Bobby as an example, because he has such a unique set up. He has on his left side, his crash/ride, a ride, and a hi-hat, all like a tree. So in order to isolate them all, you have to do stuff like [use cardboard]. Whatever works... a piece of foam...
Maelstrom: What kind of mics are you using for this stuff?
Roy Z: It varies on the music and the player. For cymbals, I like [AKG] 451s or 414s for overheads.
Maelstrom: Do you have any application for clip-on mics in a studio?
Roy Z: We tried some of those Langevins on the hi-hat. It worked great! We’ve had trouble getting a good hi-hat sound – getting good isolation – so we’ll use a clip-on, where it’s just above the cymbal so it’s almost touching.
It’s just trial and error, isn’t it? That’s what’s so great about the whole vibe now: Everyone does their thing. There’s no “right way to do it.” At the end of the day, all that matters is if it sounds good.
Maelstrom: Talk a little bit about all this from a musician’s point of view. Is it in conflict with being a producer, a mixer, an engineer?
Roy Z: Music has changed a lot because of the technology. I’m still a fan of things organic and real. It’s becoming a lost art. With my own personal band, the Tribe of Gypsies, we’re just wrapping up our new album right now, and keeping it real organic. I’m producing alongside a guy called Richard Podler. Richie and his engineer, Bill, did all the Steppenwolf records, all the Three Dog Night records, worked with bands like Blues Image... even now, he did The New Radicals’ big song. These guys have the old-school mentality – they don’t want to over-produce things. They don’t want to loop if they don’t have to. And when you add it all up, it really comes across as, “wow! Music is missing some of this stuff right now.” Right now, to me music almost sounds like a video game. People aren’t struggling to do anything. There’s no angst. If you put on a Stones record, you're going to hear some of that. Jagger’s not going to quite hit the note, but he wiggles his way in there; the guitar’s slightly out of tune, but you add it all up and it sounds real.
Maelstrom: Listening to all this, how do you reconcile this point of view with how you produce records?
Roy Z: Well... I try to leave some humanity on there. Some grease. I think that at the end of the day, that’s going to stand up and feel some of that humanity, versus something that’s perfect and leaves you feeling cold.
Maelstrom: What was it like producing Rob Halford’s vocals?
Roy Z: The first time I worked for him, I was setting up a mic, and he was warming up, which he generally doesn’t do. And I swear to you, I felt the sound rattle my bones. He sings really loud and strong. And the more I worked with him, the more I realized that the man has 20-25 different voices.
Maelstrom: Yeah, you can really notice it on Crucible.
Roy Z: He’s a natural. He has control, and yet he doesn’t.
Maelstrom: How’s that?
Roy Z: The man is blessed. At some point, he had to have worked on it; but he doesn’t practice. It just comes out! He molds these voices out of ability, but also necessity. What’s great about the voices is that he puts a different character with each one, but they’re all still him.
I’ve heard some stuff in private – that’s never been released – and I was blown away, man.
Maelstrom: Why wasn’t that stuff ever released?
Roy Z: It was personal music. I heard this one thing, he sounded like Pavarotti. Blew me away! I was like, “what’s that, Rob?!” And he was like, “oh, I have that...” It was like a Christmas thing for his folks.
Maelstrom: You’ve recorded the two arguably most influential singers in metal history, Rob Halford and Bruce Dickinson. What is it like working with Dickinson?
Roy Z: Bruce is a consummate pro. He comes in fully prepared, and he bangs it out. He does four takes, and leaves you to it to put it together. And he’s right on the money.
The last record we did, he had fallen. I don’t know if he had broken his ribs, but he was messed up. And he still managed to do, in three days, all the songs.
Maelstrom: You produced Dickinson’s last record, Tyranny of Souls. What I thought was interesting on that album was that for what seemed like the first time ever, he didn’t put any of his trademark mustard on his voice for one song in the middle, which is a soft tune. It was a treat, because I had never heard him sing like that before.
Roy Z: He has a wonderful clear voice. All these guys do. Dio, on his early records, has an amazing clear voice. But they don’t always get a chance to use them, because they gotta compete with the guitars... and the cymbals! (Laugh)
Maelstrom: It sounds like working with Halford is very visceral.
Roy Z: Of course there are times where I’ll ask him to redo a line or a word, but we approach it in a global way. We go for a main vibe, and once we have that, then it’s just putting it together.
Sometimes it comes together in one take. I’ve seen Rob do that. There’s a song called “She” on the last solo record we did. And literally, on the console, he had 30 sets of different lyrics. And the song is playing. “Just loop that song for me,” he asks. He’s listening, listening, and looking at all these lyrics. All of a sudden, Rob grabs the mic and taps it (he always taps it first to make sure it’s working), and grabs a set of lyrics and starts singing. And that was it. That was the take. The whole song. It was amazing! I’ve never seen anybody do that.
Maelstrom: Yeah, I think that most people don’t realize that, even with singers that are really good, that they might do 30 takes, or record one line at a time. Also, many people still don’t appreciate that instruments in studio recordings are recorded separately. And also that those sessions are done in pieces.
Roy Z: People don’t realize that in a three-minute song, all the hours that go into it. |