interview by: Roberto Martinelli

When presenting the band Napalm Death, it's inevitable to talk about how influential it has been. Since Napalm's original drummer, Mick Harris, popularized the rhythm known as the blast beat in the mid-80s, the music world had been introduced to grindcore, a style that mixed hardcore, punk and metal together into something altogether new, ugly, and jarring.

Since these early days, the genre has developed, as has Napalm Death. While there was a time when Napalm's songs rarely topped the 25 second mark (and some were as short as two seconds), this band that originated in the metal hotbed of Birmingham, England has refined its sound several times, which brings us to the year 2002 and the release of the latest Napalm album, Order of the Leech. Since Napalm Death's signing to the Spitfire label, the band has released two albums and regained a freshness and urgency that had gradually died since the release of the excellent Fear, Emptiness, Despair in 1994, which incidentally was the first extreme metal album I had ever heard and enjoyed, without a doubt eventually leading me to start this zine.

Mark "Barney" Greenway joined the band as the 80s came to a close. Since then, he has always been in my mind one of the best and more recognizable death barkers around. I spoke to Greenway about the new record and his band's political message.

Maelstrom: The new record, compared to the last record you put out, Enemy of the Music Business, seems a lot more brutal and straightforward. It's a lot more pummeling. Anything that was even remotely playful about the previous record is gone.

Barney Greenway (above): When we go into a studio, we don't always know what's going to come out on the other end. We know what we want, roughly; probably more of an idea of what some bands do. We just let it go in its natural flow, and whatever came out, came out.

Maelstrom: The main idea of a Napalm Death album is to not let the listener have a break.

Barney Greenway: Yeah, you hit the nail on the head there. One thing I don't like, myself, from a listening point of view, when I'm listening to an extreme band, I don't like it to be metronome perfect, you know? It takes a certain shine off it, you know what I mean? The organic nature of it is far better for me.

Maelstrom: So the drums on Order of the Leech are absolutely organic?

Barney Greenway: Well, obviously there's a certain trigger sample on there. I don't get involved in the whole production side of things. In all honesty I find it slightly tedious. I came in, listened to some of the guitars that were going down, did my vocals, and left.

Maelstrom: It seems that every time I listen to one of your new albums, Danny Herrera's drumming gets better and better, especially on the last one. Despite that, my favorite Napalm Death album is still Harmony Corruption, which I think is a lot of people's favorite record. How would you compare Mick Harris' (the band's original drummer) style with Danny Herrera's?

Barney Greenway: With Micky, it had very much to do with character. I'm surprised Danny can still drum, he's had so many cakes and pies and stuff. That boy's sportin' some pounds.

Maelstrom: Yeah, he's put on a lot of weight since he joined.

Barney Greenway: Yeah, he has. I mean, I'm only sort of joking with that. They both run quite parallel to the character. Mick was fucking nuts. His whole character was like the Tasmanian Devil.

Maelstrom: What's a nuts Mick Harris story that you could tell us?

Barney Greenway: I remember we went around his house - a house where his mum and dad used to live in, a modest sort of house - and he said, "come on, man, let's go out and fucking knock our garage down." Just out of the blue. And I said, "do what?" And he said, "Let's go out and knock the garage down." The garage in England is on the side of the house, the car port, I guess you'd call it. So I thought that his dad must want us to knock the shit down - he doesn't want it anymore. His dad came and he said, "Michael! What are you doin'?" He said, "I'm just knocking down the wall." It turned out that his dad didn't know anything about it; we were doin' it just because Mick thought it would be fun.

Maelstrom: Is he still doing any drumming? He was doing Scorn for a while and Lull, but that's all ambient or with programmed drums.

Barney Greenway: Yeah, that's why Micky left. He wanted to turn the band into Killing Joke, with like ambient and stuff in it. And of course we were like, "no." You know? You can't do that, man, it's fucking Napalm Death! Don't do that!

Maelstrom: It's kind of a shame, because he doesn't do all that much drumming anymore.

Barney Greenway: No, no, he does a bit. I think he wants to get back into real drumming, from what I've heard. He wants to do a real band again, I guess in an extreme hardcore mold. But I don't know where that guy's head's up. It was good to have him drumming because he's a good friend, but the other side of it was he could be a complete dick. He was a funny guy. When he was funny, he was hilarious. But Danny's drumming is kind of chaotic. Danny's (left) quite a funny character himself, but unintentionally so.

Maelstrom: Is he American or is he English?

Barney Greenway: He's American. He's Mexican. He can be kind of spaced out. He can be a quiet guy - he's kind of reserved. He's not very animated when he's moving about, but when he gets on the kit he's quite effective. At least he plays a proper blast beat.

Maelstrom: Ooh, that's a big dig against Mick!

Barney Greenway: No, you're missing the point. I'm not making a dig against Mick. I'm not making a dig against anyone. I'm just saying that those two drummers play a proper blast beat.

Maelstrom: Does Danny use two feet? It sounds like two feet on your record.

Barney Greenway: No, he uses one.

Maelstrom: Holy shit.

Barney Greenway: Yeah, yeah, it's one foot.

Maelstrom: Do you keep up with the current grind or death scene?

Barney Greenway: Yeah, I do. I've always been interested and always will be. The grind stuff these days is quite a wide description.

Maelstrom: I wouldn't even call you guys grind anymore, really… what do you think?

Barney Greenway: I still think we are, yeah. The term grindcore was invented by Micky.

Maelstrom: I think when people think of grindcore, they think of like 25-second songs.

Barney Greenway: Uh, yeah, but there's not a time constraint. It's the style more than anything: that mixture between hardcore and death metal. Obviously the tuned-down guitars and the sound of the bass that sounds like a fucking tractor. That's "grindcore" within the parameters, if you want to put any sort of parameters on it. But then there's other descriptions: extreme hardcore, extreme punk.

Maelstrom: I think a lot of people identify grindcore as sort of the punk version of metal.

Barney Greenway: Yeah, exactly, exactly. With the metal infusion. I would still say we are. Whatever people want to say, it's all fine.

Maelstrom: What you think about Pig Destroyer?

Barney Greenway: I like Pig Destroyer. I think that album was pretty good.

Maelstrom: I think in terms of what I consider true grind, I think that they're the best grind band now.

Barney Greenway: I think Nasum are the best.

Maelstrom: I disagree. I mean, I'm not saying they're not good. Pig Destroyer just reaches me in a way that Nasum doesn't.

Barney Greenway: That's cool. I mean, one thing about Nasum is that they're actually closer to Napalm in term of stylistics. This is being slightly anal about it, maybe, but Nasum used that classic riffing style in terms of there being not too many notes in there. The way Miesko actually plays the riffs on his guitar is very much like Bill (Steer) would have done it before, or Jesse (Pintado) or Mitch (Harris) does it now. Pig Destroyer is slightly different: they use a lot of harmonics and stuff like that. I like them, but Nasum is my favorite by a long shot; I say that without hesitation. (Napalm Death guitarist Jesse Pintado, left)

Maelstrom: We were talking about the punk influence. For me, a major defining thing about punk is the political lyrics. Would you agree with that?

Barney Greenway: Yeah, I would say that not only are we influenced by it lyrically, but also musically. Obviously a big influence is Discharge. GBH is still an influence. Lyrically, Crass.

Maelstrom: Your lyrics in Napalm have always had a political message. Has the message that Napalm has been putting out always been the same?

Barney Greenway: I look at the political lyrics another way: if you want, as common sense. But a lot of people don't always acknowledge common sense or indeed use common sense, you know? Not to be patronizing, but I think that's quite true. It's not been diluted down the years; the same things are still prevalent where we're at today in terms of the general world community. The message has never changed, it's just new things come along - new things that you kind of think one day, "shit, I've always thought about that, why didn't I ever write about it?" Of course there are always new situations coming about in the world that provide good ammunition. One thing that I've never written about but that I felt it was about time that I did ('cause there was a few episodes), was my stance on pro-choice [abortion].

Maelstrom: Is that a big thing in England, too? (It's a major controversy in the U.S.)

Barney Greenway: The conservative right aren't as active in aggravating or harassing abortion doctors. It's less so (than in the U.S.). Bush is apparently trying to head towards a situation where abortion is banned. It would appease the conservative, Christian right in America, which is of course very, very powerful. It's easier to get an abortion [in England]. At the end of the day, in my opinion, it's a woman's choice on what to do as she pleases with her body.

Maelstrom: I've heard metal fans say that political lyrics are for punk, and there's no place for lyrics like that in metal. What do you think about that?

Barney Greenway: I think that's very blinkered. The point is that music is a very emotive thing, so why shouldn't you have emotive lyrics that actually are trying to achieve something? Metal can be escapist if it wants to be, but why shouldn't it also possess a bit of common sense?

Maelstrom: I think that was one of the main things that separated the punk guys from the metal guys.

Barney Greenway: Yeah, but why does there always this emphasis on separation? I've never quite understood that. You know what I mean? What? Are you gonna take offense to someone because they've got a Mohawk? And equally, I know kids with long hair back in the day that used to get beat up at punk shows. It's just ridiculous.

Maelstrom: It's gotten even more ridiculous in this hardcore scene with like, you know, "I'm a Christian vegan, and you're not a Christian vegan, so I'm gonna beat you up."

Barney Greenway: I'm glad you mentioned that, because the whole Christian vegan movement has just lost its way. Not everyone, 'cause I'm not going to generalize, 'cause there are some very well-intentioned vegan activists, but the whole thing about going to shows with socks with snooker balls (like pool balls - Roberto) in 'em, and swinging them around in the pit and knocking someone's teeth out… I'm sorry, man, but that's never the way it was about. And call yourselves punks? That ain't punk. It's got nothing to do with punk. Punk was about respect and tolerance and having a good time. It's about creating an alternative community where people can make a difference, and you're not making a difference by letting someone leave the show spitting teeth out of their fucking head. I've done some shows where someone will deliberately pile into someone with a knuckle duster (I think that's what he said - Roberto) or something. I'm sorry, but that's just fucking stupid, and it shouldn't be encouraged. So there you go. The whole (Christian) thing about people knocking drinks out of people's hands and attacking kids just 'cause they're wearing leather jackets is missing the point. This is coming from a guy who's vegetarian for 19 years, I'm totally into animal rights, but [what these people are doing] isn't achieving anything - it's actually turning people against the ethos. (Napalm Death guitarist Mitch Harris, above)

Maelstrom: It's almost like a trend thing - like the extreme flavor of the month. Let's jump on it.

Barney Greenway: Yeah, I get that. These Christian vegan guys, they want to argue about abortion. It almost becomes a conservative movement in itself. If you ask Ian McKay (of Modern Threat and Fugazi, who talked about animal rights back in the day) what he thought of what it has turned into, I'm sure he's got his opinions that it's quite sad that people are picking on other people at shows because they're drinking. That's not what it's about.

Maelstrom: Do you think listeners should read and agree with your lyrics to enjoy the music properly?

Barney Greenway: I think they get wholesale appreciation of it if they read the lyrics. I don't think it's a set in stone requirement that they agree with the lyrics. At least read them and see what's going on. If people just want to listen to it for the music, that's [their] choice. Where I draw the line is ignorance rather than people being too bothered about lyrics. And it's not necessarily what I'm talking about, but more about what's going on around. Ignorance and apathy are probably one of the greatest enemies to living in a peaceful world. If people just want to listen to the music and don't care too much about the politics, then that's cool.

Maelstrom: Do you think it's equally acceptable to listen to national socialist bands and enjoy the music, but not necessarily agree with the politics?

Barney Greenway: Oh, god, I know all about those national socialists we have in England. I would urge people to boycott that stuff, not necessarily for the listening side of it, but, obviously, as I said in an interview a long time ago that did rub some people the wrong way, is that if you're giving money to these people, you're giving money to possibly to small pockets of people who are going to go out and harass people and put hate literature through the letterboxes of black families and Asian families. Think about where your money is going.

Maelstrom: I think it's really chicken shit. I went over to a friend's house. He has a bunch of NS stuff. He has this CD called Aryan Terrorism. It's full of Aryan this 'n that, and "we hate niggers…" But what's really chicken shit about it is that inside the booklet it says "these lyrics are not printed to incite any sort of violence. They're for entertainment value, or whatever…"

Barney Greenway: Yeah, right…

Maelstrom: And I'm thinking, "if you're going to be a racist dick, at least stand up for what you're saying."

Barney Greenway: Ironically enough, in the land of the free is where you get the most harassment. This subject has popped up in quite a few interviews. As much as being critical about society around us, a lot of people shy away from upsetting the scene, 'cause it's not cool, or whatever. I'd like to see Napalm Death as a counter balance to a lot of the negative shit - and there is a lot of negative shit in the metal scene as much as the positive. There's always been some sort of rampant homophobia, and an (not necessarily genuine or wholesale) element of racism.

Maelstrom: It's so hilarious, because so much (objectively) of metal is homo erotic.

Barney Greenway: Yeah.

Maelstrom: The whole thing comes from Rob Halford, who is homosexual, but metal fans don't really notice that because it's become normalized.

Barney Greenway: We play festivals occasionally in America. When you talk about equality and stuff like that, some people just don't like it. They get quite aggravated. You're probably going to go to the festival and play with bands that have the opposite agenda. I'm going to go and stand up and say, look, all this fucking shit: people talking about fags or niggers, and shit like that. We see it when I'm in America (more so than most places). I'm going to stand up and say, no, you can fuck yourself, because that's not us. If people want to say it to me, man, I'll readily admit that I've got a feminine side to me, and I'm quite comfortable with that. Just 'cause I'm into metal and I'm into punk and I'm into hardcore, doesn't mean I have to live this great, macho, good ol' boy fucking shit.

Maelstrom: I guess you don't relate with Manowar, then.

Barney Greenway: I like Manowar. I think they're funny. I like the band. I like some of the music. To be honest, I think those guys have been taken out of context. I think they are an entertaining band; I think they write some pretty good stuff. They do the metal sort of thing that Judas Priest used to do, for example. It's quite funny that you should mention Manowar: there's a few neo-Nazi bands that took Manowar and embraced them - true Aryan, Viking. If you talk to Eric or Joey - I say this without patronizing them - they're like goofy metal, "long live metal, raise the fist" guys. There's no Aryan messages in there. There might be references of Viking culture and this whole fantasy supremacy sort of thing. But people using Manowar as a barometer of National Socialism in action will find that they are very wrong. Joey Demaio and a couple of guys in that band are of mixed blood, so that puts your little Aryan argument right out of the equation, I'm afraid. So there you go. I always found that Resistance Records to be a fairly odious sort of label. It's quite funny to see 'em set up at Metalfest, with them knowing full well what we're about, and that guy (the Resistance Records guy) sneering at me as I walk past. That's quite amusing. Are there many record labels like that in America? (Napalm Death bassist Shane Embury, above)

Maelstrom: You know, I knew about Resistance, and I believe there's another one called Unholy. I don't go out of my way to listen to NS stuff. If I get something and I like it, I'll like it. I like to try to be able to separate what I think the politics are from my appreciation of the sound of it. But I'm not like, "ooh, that's NS. Let's go get it!" Not surprisingly, it's hard to find, as a lot of stores don't want to carry it.

Barney Greenway: As much as I'm against censorship, the thing with a lot of National Socialist movement music is that it obviously doesn't encourage freedom of speech. In an ideal National Socialist society there is no freedom of speech, so how can you advocate that as a democracy when people decide not to stock it in their stores? I think it's a positive message, not so much that they want to censor it, but the hatred behind it, it doesn't encourage free thought. There is no free thought behind National Socialist music.

Maelstrom: It seems like you got a new lease on life when you signed to Spitfire Records. Can I call it a second of even a third wind for Napalm Death?

Barney Greenway: With all due respect to Spitfire, I don't think the label necessarily gave us that new breath of like. But what I can say that was refreshing was having worked with Jon Paris of Spitfire Records. Jon's a real good guy, and to have a label showing enthusiasm, is real rare! (laugh)

Maelstrom: For me, there were a few records there, like Diatribes and Inside the Torn Apart that just didn't have the energy or the urgency that your records before or after have.

Barney Greenway: I agree. I totally agree. This is the whole point. You have to remember that at that time with the whole experimental thing, as much as it creating a split between opinion outside the band, it was also creating the same split within the band. That was kind of a real difficult time for me. Although looking back at it now, I can appreciate a little more what we were doing at the time; no other bands were really doing that - with that experimental (something, couldn't tell), for want of a better adjective - a groovy sort of thing. I think you find a lot of that influence in some of the hardcore stuff now, you know, the noisecore stuff. I think it's similar to what we were doing back then.

Maelstrom: Is Napalm your full-time job?

Barney Greenway: Nah, I got a job. I work for a company that distributes video games.

Maelstrom: Oh, which one?

Barney Greenway: It's not a publishing house. It's an independent distributor. I lasted as long as I could in the band without earning money, but I had to take the job because I needed to. But I enjoy my work, so it's kinda good. So my life's pretty busy. I got some magazine work which I do as well. I work for Kerrang! in England.

Maelstrom: How did you get the name Barney?

Barney Greenway: Oh, man, it's a nickname from many, many years ago. Do you know the band Doom? The old hardcore band? The drummer from that band, Stick, was an old friend of mine. When I used to drink, many, many moons ago - before I got sick with it - I was a real clumsy drunk. I used to bump into everything. For example, I'd go into someone's house and pull the heating radiator off the wall without even knowing that I was doing it by leaning on it. Or I'd go bundling through a load of a friend of mine's plants. I'd be totally out of control without wanting to be out of control. So, "Rubble" (from the Flinstones cartoon) and then "Barney Rubble," and then just Barney.

Maelstrom: So what's your biggest vice now?

Barney Greenway: Probably video games and chocolate. And football as well.

All photos and logo taken from the official Napalm Death site.

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